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"/>				<outline text="i actually think this is really interesting. I's been a long year. gone through somethings"/>				<outline text="fell in love with blogging. "/>				<outline text="went from the good times to the hate stuff. even today I looked at my comments, deleted a lot of them. "/>				<outline text="talk about companies doing biz on the web as well."/>				<outline text="flickr may be beloved, but lately... need to ask questions."/>				<outline text="when I walk down the street, I don't slap somebody in the face. we have rules in society that establish what we do and do n't do. "/>				<outline text="I don;'tthinik we ahve a core set of values . People don't realize fully the impact that nasty comments have on individuals."/>				<outline text="Is trolling okay? "/>				<outline text="do you need to toughen up and get used to it?"/>				<outline text="is it a valid viewopoint that, if you can't  handle it, get out.?"/>				<outline text=""/>				</outline>			</outline>		<outline text="Notes">			<outline text="susan mernit:">				<outline text="i've had touble on and off for years withy a person who knew me, who seemed to delight in knowing what would get to me... actually turned off comments for awhile. Unrelated, went to see a therapist at the time. "/>				<outline text="therapist looks at me and says &quot;only one?&quot; for trolls. uyou're doing pretty well if you only have one troll."/>				<outline text="figured out who i thought it was. used the initials on the blog. they stopped."/>				</outline>			<outline text="mike arrington">				<outline text="the only thing that changes is when you gtet tough and don't care anymore."/>				</outline>			<outline text="chris P:">				<outline text="neophytek, before blogging. sent out a mailing. one guy responded and complained. out of 30k"/>				<outline text="there are always going to be people who attack or complain..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA:">				<outline text="it's not just disagreement. it's you suck hope you die."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Scott johnson:">				<outline text="it's worse than that"/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA:">				<outline text="what about people who ... is it okay?"/>				</outline>			<outline text="Dave:">				<outline text="I;ve had trolls launch competing standards to ones I've cdreated and waged wars with me. and posted as me. people see your name in the middle of horrible things..."/>				<outline text="or people who respond to you..."/>				<outline text="cost me huge amounts of money, years of my life... there is a company raising money now, in a space I made, by flaming me..."/>				<outline text="human nature. this isn't new to the Web. it's a new space in which to work."/>				<outline text="everything you've heard about business being cutthrouat and dirty.. if it isn't nailed down, somebody is going to own it. It happed with RSS, with OPML... if yoiu want to create something open on the net you'll have to fight for it."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Kevin">				<outline text="role of transparency in creating values..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA">				<outline text="anonymous trolling is going to happen. I really thought you could convince yoiur audience not to troll you."/>				<outline text="I think there is a trend toward people, not anonymously, being viscioius. "/>				</outline>			<outline text="Kevin">				<outline text="your experience changes as you bcome more of a public figure..."/>				<outline text="i started out blogging to grumble about stuff. then as Irealized that pelople could read back what you've said, I didn't need to be so grumpy."/>				<outline text="as people take more responsibility for what they say..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA">				<outline text="my point is that people feel more permissiomn to slap you in the face."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Robert Cox:">				<outline text="this is not a new issue. usenet ,. compuserve. nothing new here. one day a year ago, my web host told me that this troll on your site is posting elsewhere. I've tracked information, and I can tell you who they are. I jumped at the opportunity. gathered a lot of info about this  person. I promised on my site to expose the name, and dared me to do it, and they freaked out. they called the FBI, the police... said I was cyberstalking it.... "/>				<outline text="six weeks ago, got an email from this person, asking me could we be friends again, and could I take what's up down. "/>				<outline text="this person is now the campai8gn director for a political cam paign in my state. Now she regrets it."/>				</outline>			<outline text="DAve:">				<outline text="what do people thikn about what he did&gt;"/>				</outline>			<outline text="Crowd:">				<outline text="some agree, some didn't."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Eric:">				<outline text="why not take it offline? (Robert did). Okay then."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Mary:">				<outline text="why is the answer to agression more aggression."/>				<outline text="last fall at the IIW I said I was going to put something up, a guy sent an email to all of us, accusing me of stealing stuff from him... made me so angry... I never steal ideas from anybody... "/>				<outline text="so we went back and forth on email..."/>				<outline text="doc made a comment ... said this guy was young and didn't understand what was going on... said that the reality is that I, or somebody needs to teach this guy a better way to behave..."/>				<outline text="we have so much more emotional response..."/>				<outline text="how do you scale?"/>				</outline>			<outline text="Doc:">				<outline text="we don;'t have acommons yet."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Niall:">				<outline text="rentmychest.com was trollproof."/>				<outline text="you may ... (missed most of it. sorry)"/>				</outline>			<outline text="Buzz:">				<outline text="im march I went into an apple store in seatle, and noticed that there was no contol, alt and delete... guy in the store said pigs would flybefore it happened. it happend. then got flamed for pointing it out."/>				<outline text="times said one determined detractor weighs th esame as a hundred thousand detractors..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="andy:">				<outline text="video gaming community... perfectly okay to swear and and tear down opponents.... can we get past that... what level of civility we may want or not want?"/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA:">				<outline text="everybody assumes there is another side of a story. obviously a great example of getting back. but they're out telling a different story and pelople don't know what to believe."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Liz:">				<outline text="I want to speak up for aggression and conflict?"/>				<outline text="it's just words. it can be productive to argue with somebody who's ... "/>				<outline text="civility is overrated"/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA">				<outline text="yes, sometimes it is overrrated. "/>				<outline text="thre is a difference with bloggers. one comment saying your an asshlle, okay"/>				<outline text="but when you get 55 a day. and it gets to 50K per month."/>				<outline text="most bloggers who quit do that for this reason."/>				<outline text="peple just bail out."/>				<outline text="dave says he'll bail before the end of the year..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Liz:">				<outline text="Hey , monetize yoiur trolls."/>				<outline text="maybe there are times you should be angry..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Erik:">				<outline text="as a social libertarian I have a problem with information that's been illegally required..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="SusanM:">				<outline text="don't lose sight of core values."/>				<outline text="peple started out thinking they were individuals... people have no relationship, no investment... "/>				<outline text="the peple who have no relationship are the ones who are most likely to (be trolls). attackers are not in your community,..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA&quot;">				<outline text="Is it okay to delete comments."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Susan:">				<outline text="everybody does it their own way"/>				<outline text="integrity and transparency, set of rules. "/>				<outline text="jarvis says this is my living room. if you talk bad i kick you out."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikkeA.">				<outline text="if there are no communityrules people won' t farm the land."/>				</outline>			<outline text="enoch choi:">				<outline text="if yoiu can be the bigger person, and try to let these trolls blow it off any way you can..."/>				<outline text="if yoiu can't, delete them."/>				</outline>			<outline text="steve gillmor:">				<outline text="like to take issue with something doc said"/>				<outline text="I think this is intensely personal"/>				<outline text="the netowrk has flattened all hieriacchy to the point of irrelevance."/>				<outline text="I feel mike's pain. "/>				<outline text="I wake up every morning and decide whether to get up or not. I do take this personally. we're all in the saeme boat here. we're all going to have to confront the issue. what mike says ... are we going to let these assholes sque3lch out excitement and desire to make the world? to break us?"/>				</outline>			<outline text="chrisp:">				<outline text="rentmychest.com was made to disarm people. I'm saying nothing is going to bother me. It's fun for me now to respond to the trolls with a smiley that enrages them back."/>				</outline>			<outline text="mikeA: ">				<outline text="conflicts of interest. i write about companies. I also have parties. and sometimes they are sponsored. the idea of disclosing conflicts is probably a good thing, pelople ould agree. what aobut more subtle matters. "/>				<outline text="what about transparency?"/>				<outline text="I co-founded edgio. what about a competitor. what if I'm ... what are the subtle ways we can push the things we like or don't like."/>				</outline>			<outline text="jake:">				<outline text="I tend not to write about the things I don't like, because it wastes my time and gives them attention."/>				<outline text="But I'll warn someblody who I think is being bad."/>				<outline text="If yoiu hae an advertiser and say they like their product, are yoiu (compromised)."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA:">				<outline text="should I not write aboutsomething *at all* because there is a disclosed involvment? some sugge3st that."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Marc:">				<outline text="somebody said on my wikipedia entry something that wasn't true, and ..."/>				<outline text="tim o'reilly should have disclosed from the beginning that he was seeking to own Web 2.0. "/>				<outline text="the idea of transparency and honestly."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Elisa">				<outline text="be transparent, be honorable, and if not everybodyh loves you, fuck 'em."/>				<outline text="in the aggregate everybody gets that there are things we all like and dislike..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Mark Glaser:">				<outline text="there are lots of journalists that... diclosure alleviates some concerns... the more transparent you are, the better it is. "/>				<outline text="you should give yoiur readers everything they need to (judge uyour integrity)"/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA:">				<outline text="I asked Om if he would be an advisor, last year. Om is my friend. he might have written more about edgio than otherwise becdaus he's my friend."/>				<outline text="at some point yoiur whole blog post is a disclosure."/>				</outline>			<outline text="andy:">				<outline text="it's not like youi're lthe sole souce of info on everything you're writing about. it's like airlies or cars. there are many sources of info. Peple  can compare Andy and Om and Mike.. pople should have a mind of their own."/>				</outline>			<outline text="">				<outline text="the whole world is build on relationships. do I expect preferential treatm,ent from pelople who write for the wsj..."/>				<outline text="core values is jsut called living. yoiu build up relationships..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="dave:">				<outline text="to what andy was saying... there is kind of a monoculture here in san francisco. sort of a muthual backscratching thing going on. I've been breaking that rule since the beginning. but I'll take that because I hate the flat world. you lose the ability to triangulate. if we all speak frankly, and don't sing the same song...  "/>				<outline text="there's a difference between not liking something somebody says and who they are. but the distinction gets lost. people say &quot;uyou're attacking me&quot;, when all I did was disagree. "/>				</outline>			<outline text="andy:">				<outline text="one of the best courses I ever haD... two kinds of arguments... arguments of facts and aruments of person. soon as the other party gets personal, you've won."/>				</outline>			<outline text="sylvia">				<outline text="I never write about my clients. I write about everything."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA">				<outline text="I write for a living."/>				</outline>			<outline text="sylvia">				<outline text="you're in a unique position"/>				</outline>			<outline text="jay rosen">				<outline text="commiunity and truth are core values. but they often come into conflict."/>				<outline text="comunityis improtant. pelople who have common values. they develop various forms of pc.  sooner or later the truth-teller runs into conflict with that community."/>				</outline>			<outline text="dmitriy">				<outline text="people who take a holier than thou attitude... it's as important to turn around, and ask, by what we are doing, we are creating a lot of impact, and somebody is going to be more, and less successful..."/>				<outline text="talk aobut conflicts of inte3rest comes from people who may have reasons to bring it up."/>				<outline text="transparency, disclosure, case closed. that's it."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Om Malik:">				<outline text="to add to what you (mike) said.. "/>				<outline text="your friendship bought you (joke)"/>				<outline text="you kind of make friendships with various parties... "/>				<outline text="the disclosure is in yoiur hjeart. what do you thinkn is right to do. you are the person you have to live with at the end of the day. you don't want to fight yoiurself. .. you say this is my blog, my opinions, take it or leave it."/>				<outline text="the ball is in yoiur court."/>				<outline text="trolls are an issue you have to deal with in your own terms... that is your space, that is you. techcrunch is mikeA's brain and heart on the web. "/>				<outline text="if you can sleep with what you've said, that's all that matters."/>				</outline>			<outline text="robert cox:">				<outline text="was on a panel at the national press club. subject was trust. interesting in c ontext of where theycome from. they felt they had trust historically and lost it over time. I was the blogger in the room. said that most pelple feel that you have all these conversations among yourselves. it's an inside game. yoiu don't re3ally say what's really going on. "/>				<outline text="may be that your whole post is a bunch of disclosures., but I'd like to se3e those. the alternative is that you end up like those people."/>				</outline>			<outline text="chrisp:">				<outline text="have you tried talking to yoiur advrertisers..."/>				<outline text="speakers pay foer their position in many conferences... you're accused before you'e exonerated..."/>				<outline text="we dco the same thing with advertising..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="ponzi">				<outline text="the huge party at the museum of flight that we're doing. the conversation in the hallways or after dinner is the main thing they remember ...  we're selling this to sponsors... "/>				</outline>			<outline text="chrisp">				<outline text="but they expect more for their money.. sometimes they want your integrity."/>				</outline>			<outline text="corey:">				<outline text="coming from an industry riddled with payola..."/>				<outline text="wolrking with musicians doing blogs. I'm forming relationships. it's not necessarily a bias. rathe3r it]s based on the relationship. "/>				<outline text="im the blogosphere anybody can be called out on payola so easily. "/>				<outline text="there's a blog that recently got paid by a major label to only plug mp3s by that label. got busted in two days. "/>				<outline text="journalism that combines consumerism and liberal media. "/>				<outline text="the blogosphere is biased. and I love that."/>				</outline>			<outline text="mikeA:&quot;">				<outline text="people ar ebiassed."/>				<outline text="all hiujmans are biased"/>				</outline>			<outline text="marc">				<outline text="I;'m fascinated with this group mindset. tim o'reilly. sometimes pelple come along and do a show and a publication and become a godhead.. I watch these people do it. we figured it out. it's about monetizing a term... Web 2.0."/>				<outline text="Give the credit to doc's son for Live Web."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Dan">				<outline text="It's a little more complex than tha."/>				<outline text="we'ret talking about human nature. "/>				<outline text="we do ahve blogs, the net, a billion people online, and that's going to make people more honest. Om said it best. Yoiu have to kinow in yoiur heart..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="andy">				<outline text="comes down to yoiur personal integrity."/>				</outline>			<outline text="mikeA:">				<outline text="mmy point is that we candisclose everything, yet something about human nature... every single person who reads what we write needs to realize that we're human beings, and what we say needs to be taken in context."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Buzz:">				<outline text="got a call from bernie goldbach (irisheyes) he would thype in a word, the + sign and the word problem. this was his collectivfe wisdom of crowds."/>				</outline>			<outline text="MikeA:">				<outline text="summary"/>				<outline text="what I said about andy is right. two things that drive me today. one is that I;'m always honest and open . the other is that the trolls are tuning me into a dick. not sure I want to farm this land any more."/>				<outline text="I;m asking peolpe to be nicer to each other..."/>				</outline>			<outline text="Done."/>			</outline>		</body>	</opml>