News and commentary from the cross-platform scripting community.
cactus picture Mail Starting 2/22/97

From: joerg.hartmann@pobox.com (Joerg Hartmann);
Sent at 2/24/97; 9:24:32 PM;
Re:Being Kind to the Mac

Why should one port a 10 years old kernel (and Mach version 2 is _not_ a micro kernel) with a 25 years old personality (BSD 4.3) if there's already Mach 3 with a running, very modern and portable system (mkLinux) on PowerMac, and a soon-to-be-released modular Mach 4? Why should one port GX core technology to DPS (and sell it to Adobe), if it would be crapped through this and you could far more easyly have the whole thing, and if DPS is to be replaced by Adobe Bravo (than containing GX technology, but not saying that it was GX and came from Apple, and running first on MS Windows since Rhapsody will take years to get ready - if it does...)

Well, I'ld like to support some activity of the kind you talk about (getting Mac-technology out of Apple's hands, and so keeping it alive). But since MacOS 7 is said to be dead (no, it's not, but the whole press - and Apple - said it would be), this would mean to save the concepts/features (e.g. easy-to-use HI) and the technology (e.g. GX) alive and porting (or, if we can't buy it, adopting) it to any MacOS 8 (Rhapsody or not) and maybe (why not?) other OSes running on the PowerPC plattform HRP (mkLinux, BeOS). Well?

From: jevans@shokt.com (Jeff Evans);
Sent at 2/24/97; 9:29:04 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push

I noticed that the installation of Netscape 4.0 preview replaced the ObjectSupportLib extension version 1.1.8 with ObjectSupportLib version 1.1.

Hmmm.....seemed odd. Wonder if that will be the case with the commercial release.

I notice pages loaded much faster - closer to IE 3.0's speed.

Once again I'm back to wondering which one to rock with when I deploy stuff on client's networks :). Sooner or later I'm just going to have to choose one!

From: bhyde@gensym.com (Ben Hyde);
Sent at 2/24/97; 9:42:05 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Push = TV. Its a euphimism for Pointcast, which is just bad TV. Push recasts the new paradigm in the terms of the old paradigm. It attract funding from those that understand the old paradigm. People that think that if you could get Pointcast working on WebTV then "You'd really have something!" Pushing isn't nice.

From: roberth@MICROSOFT.com (Robert Hess);
Sent at 2/24/97; 6:39:41 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push

regarding "unsubscribe" messages....

I also belong to several e-mail lists, most of them related to the 'technology' sector, but one of them is for "chef's on the Internet". Guess which one rarely has misdirected unsubscribes, or frantic pleas for how to get off? Yep. Those chef's have it all in hand.

The reason is a reasonably low-tech answer. The list server simply adds the following a trailer onto every message that gets delivered that provides subscribing/unsubscribing info.

Most list-wizards cringe at such a waste of bandwidth. but counter that with the wasted bandwidth for the semi-regular failed attempts, global responses to those attempts, and then global responses to those responding telling them not to respond gobally...


From: trimble@ns.blueskystudios.com (Chris Trimble);
Sent at 2/24/97; 9:31:20 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push

As vague as it's been talked about, I think "push" only comes out of the media giants' realization that they can't force people to look at their commercial fluff on the Internet. The Web's current state forces site makers to provide interesting, intelligent, useful stuff. People won't look at pages that have tons of ads, superfluous fluff and such.

Push defeats the purpose of the Web. It's trying to take television and radio and put it on the Net. With better organization, the Web can be the greatest library, educational tool and information storehouse of all time; I don't think push really lends itself to that.

From: josh@skyweyr.com (Joshua D. Baer);
Sent at 2/24/97; 7:45:57 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Take a look at:

http://arpp.carleton.ca/midas/mail/list-header.html http://arpp.carleton.ca/midas/mail/list-header-intro-manager.html

Have you been following the discussion on the ListMom-Talk, and List-Headers lists?

mailto:list-header@arpp.carleton.ca?Subject=subscribe mailto:listmom-talk@skyweyr.com?subject=subscribe

I'm sure your comments would be valuable, especially in the macro/variable area. Most of the other aspects seem to have reached consensus, but that area is still a bit unclear...

The intention is to enable the mail clients to provide UI support for these functions. It's not a final solution, more like a first step to something better. Grant and I wrote a FaceSpan floating windoid for Eudora with buttons to subscribe, unsubscribe, etc which works today. The Eudora and Emailer folks are involved as well, so the prospects are good for support in the next versions.


From: stadler@mpath.com (Andrew D. Stadler);
Sent at 2/23/97; 11:15:23 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

> PS: I started using Netscape 4.0b2 for the Mac yesterday. It uses more
> RAM. Display of graphics can be quirky. It hasn't crashed yet.
> Thanks! Same menu sharing bug as 3.0. Even so, I've made it my default
> browser. Layers look coool, I'm going to try some stuff with them.

When I think of Netscape 3.01, I think two things: (1) RAM hog, (2) Crashes my Mac. I'm glad you mentioned both of these factors.

I wish you hadn't mentioned the high RAM usage so calmly. Netscape's high RAM usage is a real problem. People like you and me can afford more and more RAM, but lots of people can't. Netscape keeps getting bigger and bigger, trying to do more and more. I wish it would just be a web browser only, collapse its RAM usage, concentrate on fewer features and get the bugs out.

Anyway, love the column.

--Andy Stadler stadler@mpath.com

P.S. As I type, Steve Case is on an AOL ad, apologizing for the problems and showing lots of happy AOL workers installing new modems and giving refunds. I'm actually glad to see it. Too many subscribers is a problem we should all have!

From: rich@richnet.org (Rich Santalesa);
Sent at 2/24/97; 4:02:21 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push


I've been running a forum on push technologies on NetGuide's web site this past week. A number of push companies are represented and we've touched on some interesting topics.

Drop by if you get a chance, http://www.netguidemag.com/.

Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page.

Rich S.

From: thecow@interport.net (keith);
Sent at 2/23/97; 10:52:17 PM;
Push Technology

Doesn't Push Technology defeat what many people find cool about the internet? Interactivity. Sure, it gives a way to provide lots of information, but I want more choice than choosing which TV station to watch or which Magazine to read. The use of the word Push shows the lack of interactivity. Where's the pull?!?!?!

- keith

From: ronagey@design-design.com ();
Sent at 2/23/97; 8:29:09 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

I've been debating asking the following but I figure that others are asking this as well: Does asking how to get on the Important People list automatically disqualify one from being on it? :)

From: pete@wordplace.com (Pete Peterson);
Sent at 2/24/97; 5:06:14 AM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Artistic? Does it have to be artistic? None of my stuff is artistic. It's original, but it's not art. Pete

From: Jim_Seymour@msn.com (Jim Seymour);
Sent at 2/23/97; 11:59:13 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Ahh, the perils of "unsubscribe." When it works - which is rare - it's still a dumb system. When it doesn't - most of the time, at most sites and lists; just try unsubscribing from Pathfinder, for example! - it's infuriating....

Jim Seymour

From: bsa3@cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman);
Sent at 2/23/97; 6:05:34 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

I have Eudora Pro set up to sort mail from each mailing list to which I subscribe into its own mailbox. That's about as good as it gets, although limited improvements can be made to the server, such as prepending the list name to message subjects.

Some listserv programs support channels, which can be added and dropped as needed by the admin. This seems to be what you're talking about when you mention working groups and sublists.

What computer are you running 4.0b2 on? I've got a 6100/60, and Netscape is about an order of magnitude slower than v3.0, which is still about 20% slower than IE. Standard MacOS 7.6 plus ATM and Kaleidoscope.

I've started running Netscape on an HP 9000 and remote-displaying it on my Mac. The X server uses 30% less ram than Netscape 3.0.

From: scott@sco.COM (Scott McGregor);
Sent at 2/23/97; 2:38:07 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Dave-- I shared your puzzlement about why is "push" being touted as a new invention. A useful analogy for me on push versus pull is the change that happened in GUI design many years ago. Programs used to be all "pull" in that they would spin on getting something (a character, a mouse event) back from the user. Since then, most systems moved to "push" where events are assumed to come in at random times and from random places. With the internet, we now get stuff from lots of places, some of which we don't expect!

I like push because it is timely and refreshing, but the downside is junkmail.

From: searls@batnet.com (Doc Searls);
Sent at 2/23/97; 1:53:33 PM;
This push thing


About "push."

Check out http://www.searls.com/shove.html.

And get outside, if you're not already. What a day!


P.S. I no longer subscribe to any new email list servers. I literally cannot unsubscribe from some of them. PC Week Direct is the worst.

From: pmth02jc@umassd.edu (Jim Correia);
Sent at 2/23/97; 4:47:10 PM;
Netscape 4.0b2

> PS: I started using Netscape 4.0b2 for the Mac yesterday. It uses more RAM.

It uses more RAM is an understatement. 18 MB on a PPC with virtual memory turned off. Somebody in Mountain View should be embarrassed. Very embarrassed.


From: yvon@cais.com (Yvon Perreault);
Sent at 2/23/97; 4:26:31 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Quickly: I want to point out that you lately have been spelling 'valuable' as 'valuble'. I must say however that your spelling and grammar and generally top notch.

From: pete@medweb.net (Pete Killcommons);
Sent at 2/23/97; 12:57:10 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

I believe you'll find the bulk of the push integration you are suggesting is already part of Weblicator from Lotus. Weblicator is a spin off of Notes that takes the notes groupware standard and extends it to regular browsers.

We have incorporated push technology into our Medical imaging plugin for Netscape which allows push from the server to the plugin. We've been doing it for the last 6 months. But our interfaces still pale in comparison to Weblicator.

From: dansokol@woz.org (Dan Sokol);
Sent at 2/23/97; 12:30:23 PM;
Re:The Promise of Push

Actually, 'push' technology doesn't take off until the MIP (Multicast IP) spec's are finished.

MIP is what makes 'push' viable. Instead of having to send data from a server to a client ONE CLIENT AT A TIME, MIP sends the data to ALL the clients at once.

There's an entire internet subculture dedicated to MIP.

Dan Sokol

From: dwiner@well.com (Dave Winer);
Sent at ;
Re:Lunch With Woz

I asked follow up questions, what papers do you read and what paper is the worst. In both cases, SJ Merc. I called Jodi Mardesich at the Merc and asked her to look up stories about Woz, looking for anything painful, and she found a bunch of stories about his divorce. They fought with each other in public and it was very ugly.

Most of my talk with him was on background. I learned a lot, you're getting the benefit of that in my subsequent pieces. I'm not writing an interview thing, never have, maybe someday. You get my opinion, as it is influenced by other people. I think perhap s that's why he took a chance with me, although I didn't ask that question.


From: whearst@kpcb.com (W Hearst);
Sent at 2/22/97; 4:21:28 PM;
Re:Lunch With Woz

What does this mean? It's bad to sell papers but OK to sell computers? You don't trust the press? But you are one of them? You're better than "them"? There is something false being said about Apple and it is .....?

There is some truth "to be told" and it is .... what? You had a frank discussion but it's "off the record?" ... then why tell us about it? Woz wants to speak the "truth to be told" ... but what is scaring him? The press? huh?

Really dave, I love your list, and Woz is one of my heros, but this is ridiculous.

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