News and commentary from the cross-platform scripting community.
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Mail Starting 9/5/97 | |
Doc Searls' portrayal of Steve as the ultimate aesthete, building new industries solely to perpetuate a self-image as an artistic innovator, is curious in consideration of Jobs' writing, which is almost always objectionable.
From: meerkat@flash.net (Wes Simonds);
Sent at 9/6/97; 10:28:37 AM;
Jobs according to SearlsOne egregious example is his repeated use of the acronym "CHIRP" in place of "CHRP" in his recent Apple-confidential memo. This is not merely inaccurate; it's silly. The phrase "Common Hardware Reference Platform" doesn't contain five words.
Many question whether Jobs understands the underlying significance of CHRP, but I don't believe he can even spell it.
I'm ready to move to Be! Just one favor I have to ask of you. Buy back the source code to More and recompile it for Be. I sure do love that program!
From: mfellman@minn.net (Mark Fellman);
Sent at 9/6/97; 10:27:41 AM;
Let it be Be!Could the BeBox design be made available to hardware companies? It could be the next CHRP, considering its intellectual parentage. And if it sells well, Be could be back into hardware design, à la ARM maybe...
From: philslade@worldnet.att.net (Philippe Dambournet);
Sent at 9/6/97; 10:27:17 AM;
BeBox Redux?Just daydreaming, but the pundits give me an excuse today. It really sounds like the time is ripe for a return to the original Be business plan, with a couple of major twists, of course... How long could it take for Motorola to ship a BeBox derivative that would be totaly Apple-free, running BeOS? There would probably be a developer rush. Actually, it should be shipped in spare parts, to be assembled by geeks, with limited inventory and forecasting problems.
Are there serious talks on the go between "Mac" developers and J-LG? I will tell you why I am asking.
From: evert@netfx.co.za (Evert S. de Ruiter);
Sent at 9/6/97; 11:24:24 AM;
Too much to loseMy company is faced with a dilemma RE the Apple platform. There is no real, rational reason (no, no more emotional appeals, please!) why we should stay with the platform. When OS 8 was released we decided that we will only stick with the platform if we run it on clones, not Apple machines, and Power was the leading contender to supply the hardware. Taking the last few weeks' events, especially the Power buy-out (or was that a sell-out?) we have decided to move over to the more competitive (quoute, unquote, Gil) WinTel platform. Sad. Unfortunate. But true.
Apple no longer shows any respect to their clients, their cloning-partners, their developers. Yet, for some inexplicable reason, we're all still supporting them. Unfortunately they suffer from the misconception that it is because we believe what they are doing is the right thing. No sirs, it is because we have too much to lose.
My last attempt to rescue our investment in the Mac OS and software would be to look at Be and its toys. If that does not provide an acceptable alternative, off to cross-grade upgrades and the WinTel platform. Hello, Billy! At least the NT 4.0 has the multi-tasking environment that Apple is still only promising, not to mention crash protection. That is before we even talk about cheaper peripherals and better support.
Maybe William III has a point - it's not about warm fuzzy feelings about the friendly OS and hardware platform we know as Apple Mac, it is about money. Right now there is no reason to spend any of it on Apple. If we are going to lose money on completely replacing our Apple hardware, let's lose it now. At least we won't wake up one day and wonder what happened to that cute Cupertino company we all called Great.
Pop quiz: You have a significant investment in a company that couldn't give a %%%% about you. What do you do?
Your late night effort was the best Dave Net piece I have ever read, not because it was particularly well written :-) but because your message resonated with my soul. I've been putting off getting that October MacUser for too long. Me and my application, we're Be bound.
From: iano@scripps.edu (Ian Russell Ollmann);
Sent at 9/5/97; 1:52:55 PM;
Late night writingUm, has Be finally solved the fragile base class problem, or are developers still going to have to recompile their apps for every new release of the OS? When I last checked out BeOS (back when Apple was considering licensing them), they seemed to be sidestepping the issue for the time being. I did a quick check of Be's web site, but it didn't seem to be in their FAQ.
From: john.brewer@autodesk.com (John Brewer);
Sent at 9/5/97; 12:06:02 PM;
Re:The Nine Lives of Jean-LouisI have been kicking around an idea for a couple of months that falls right in line with your Be OS strategy. I'd like to make inexpensive CHRP motherboards for older Macs like the II series, quadras and centrii. No Apple license is necessary. It's not a clone after all. Mac users would certainly be a target market, but it could be a boon for Be as well. All those upgraded Macs would be "Be Ready," and suddenly your installed base just grew. Every board I sell is a new potential Be customer.
From: draeker@thegrid.net (Scott Draeker);
Sent at 9/5/97; 10:10:29 AM;
CHRP Upgrades for older MacsWhat I am looking for is a CHRP design I can license for resale. In the alternative, I would need a team that could do the design. If you had any one in mind that would be interested I would greatly appreciate your forwarding this note along.
Let's make some good news for a change.
I duno if you've seen this, maybe you have. http://www.pios.de/ They're working on CHRP hardware that can make you drool, then they're saying they will ship it with BsOS, Linux, and CodeWarrior Lite for BeOS. And they have a Developer program too. Sounds like what you're asking for. I know I'm saving for one of those.
From: Michael.C.Tilstra-1@tc.umn.edu (Michael C Tilstra);
Sent at 9/5/97; 11:27:34 AM;
CHRPOne of the aspects of this, and something I have been working on for the last few weeks, is how to boot the BeOS solo without having to boot half way into MacOS. This applies singularly to PowerMac clones. Using the OpenFirmware stuff on most of the clones, you are able to bypass the MacROMs and boot directly from the hard drive. Linuxppc allows you to do this now. OF supports a "XCOFF Installer" format. Unfortunately, the BeOS uses PEF as it's executable format. However, it should be possible to write a loader that can load PEF after it is running. With OpenFirmware, we can give at least one of the benefits of CHRP to folks now. That is, running any OS on the system without having MacOS on it. Linuxppc already does this! Be can do it too. I am currently trying to get something like this done for the Be community. If someone more talented than I can get it out quickly, then all the better. Wow, maybe by Sunday I can kick the MacOS off my PowerTowerPro and run BeOS all by itself!
From: gkucharo@ntp-mail.netpower.com (Greg Kucharo);
Sent at 9/5/97; 9:37:36 AM;
Be CHRP/Nine LivesHow much we can learn from eastern wisdom - I like Dethes samurai metaphor a lot. What is even worse: If you know that you have to stop thinking about survival to survive, but you can't (out of fear). Another interesting buddhist story says that the lion cannot be defeated by another animal, only by the parasite from inside.
From: chrisp@karlsruhe.netsurf.de (Christoph Pingel);
Sent at 9/5/97; 6:26:49 PM;
Re:The Nine Lives of Jean-LouisSince Steven Jobs seems to go for that role, we have to look for alternatives. Be it.
You know what I thought when Apple bought Next? - Why not BE next MAC! When I heard the latest anti-clone news from Apple, it became more obvious that Be is the only alternative if you don't want to become a Win user. This seems to be the most elegant solution: advanced software on advanced hardware. Native BeOS software (e.g. Frontier) on a CHRP like the Starmax! Computing can be so much fun!!!
My only worry is that Be could go for Intel exclusively (advanced software on not so advanced hardware). I sincerely hope that the people at Motorola and IBM can see the huge potential in the BeOS and CHRP. I know lots of people here in Germany who would immediatly buy the BeOS and some affordable software crossgrades as soon as they are available. And their next computer would be a Motorola.
Please, please, don't let us alone with Bill and Steve. We need air to breathe.
Do you mean that we will have a chance to see a Be version of Frontier? Tell me it's true. I was talking to a friend of mine that I actually need a few pieces of softwares on Be and I can make a switch. The list is:
From: kcheung@cyberpalate.com (kcheung);
Sent at 9/5/97; 12:27:55 PM;
Be Frontier1) PhotoShop
2) Illustrator
3) Quark
4) Debabelizer
5) Frontier
6) BBEdit
7) WebStar
8) QuicKeysThat's it. It's not a long list. In fact, if you look at the Wintel platform, 1-4 has already be ported. Frontier is going to Wintel. There is no BBEdit, but there is HotDog, although it is not as good as BB. There is alternative to WebStar. The only thing I can't find is QuicKeys. However, Windows is not my taste. Be is much better. I am going to write to all these developers and request for a Be versions.
How are we to interpet the actions of Apple this past week?
From: luke@tymowski.org (Luke Tymowski);
Sent at 9/5/97; 11:34:21 AM;
Jobs and Apple and GasseTo me we should look at the CEO and his history of behaviour. Apple doesn't have a CEO. Jobs on the one hand is running the company but on the other hand is denying he's involved. He's running Pixar, having fun there, and just doing his duty at Apple. For someone not terribly interested in Apple he's remarkably involved. Getting rid of the CEO, getting rid of board members he doesn't like, getting rid of Apple employees who might stand up to him. Who is running Apple? Technically no one. Obviously it's Jobs.
I used to think Jobs walked on water. He developed some amazing computers and software. The Mac, NeXT Cube, NeXT Slab, NeXTStep. I know some will say he didn't do any of the work but for arguments sake I'll give him credit for all that here. I can still remember the original press conference where he introduced the Cube. I was excited. A few years later I came across NeXTWorld Magazine and started to get excited again. Here was an amazing OS that ran on impressive hardware. But with each issue I become more and more frustrated.
First NeXT targetted students. But they couldn't afford the machines. Then he targetted musicians and multi-media types. That didn't work either. Then he targetted shrink-wrap and the DTP industry. That didn't work either. Then he moved onto custom-development. That didn't work. Then he moved onto Web development. By then everyone had given up on NeXT and moved on. Then Jobs took over Apple.
Now each time Jobs changed focus he lost or screwed developers. They bought Cubes. New releases of NeXTStep wouldn't support Cubes. So everyone had to buy Slabs. Then he gave up on hardware and moved to Intel. Then clients needed something better for the enterprise market. Signed an agreement with HP. Developers have to buy HP workstations. Then they have to buy Sun workstations. Then he had a row with HP and that agreement dissolved. HP machines running NeXTStep are boat anchors. Developers can't afford to buy hugely expensive computers every six months. Developers starting out can't afford to get in the door.
Only rich developers can afford the machines. They are rich because they've achieved success on other platforms. They know how expensive it can be to port things, develop new applications. They hesitate to move to NeXTStep because there aren't sufficient customers yet. Jobs keeps changing radically the focus. By the time developers convince a client to take a risk on NeXTStep, Jobs has changed directions again and scared off the clients. Fortune 500 companies want stability. They are in business for the long-term. They will take risks, but not stupid risks. All the signals from Apple are still mostly confusing.
I was interested, hugely interested in NeXTStep. For me to buy a Slab would have cost $12k Canadian for a bare-bones system. I couldn't afford that, having just started working. When NeXT moved to Intel I thought I could afford a system. But no, Jobs now wanted me to spend $5k US for the development tools.
Jobs's attitude? We're not interested in rif-raf. We're an elite company for elite developers. If you can't afford our products that is your problem.
It's his problem. People will take a risk on a new platform if they have nothing to lose. Those people aren't rich. I took a risk on VB, taught myself to program, and I wrote apps which allowed my company to be more productive. My apps help push them into Windows from DOS. I would have loved to do that with NeXTStep. I moved to Delphi and now earn my living as a Delphi programmer. I took a risk on a BeBox. It cost me $3k Canadian and included developer tools. I had spiffy development tools for an extra $150.
When Be stopped hardware they said they would support BeBoxes only until the end of 1997. Developers complained. Gasse immediately admitted his mistake and changed the support to 3 years. He includes software written by outside developers on the BeOS CD to help them out. Be is now porting the BeOS to Intel. Be wants people to buy his products and makes it very, very easy to do. He gives you a clear sense of Be's direction. Certainly he had to change plans quickly and refocus a few times. But, guess what? He hasn't screwed too many developers doing it. The only ones I can remember where people who developed multi-media apps that required the PC-style ports on the BeBox, which Mac clones, other than Motorola, I think, did not have. But everyone else can keep up. By and large BeOS developers are a happy lot. Can't say that about Apple and NeXTStep developers.
Back to Apple. Are they a hardware or software company? Or both? People buy computers to use them. They buy them for the apps. The apps require an OS. The OS requires hardware. They also buy for the future. Can I use my machine in two years time?
Apple has said the MacOS is dead. The future is Rhapsody. Each Mac requires a special ROM. Supporting all those ROMS is expensive. How far back will Rhapsody go in supporting Apple hardware? Rhapsody will also be available on Intel. Intel machines have a longer life than Apple machines because the ROM issue. If I buy Apple hardware I can only run Apple OSs. Jobs won't help Be keep the BeOS running on his hardware. Jobs won't help Linux developers port Linux to his hardware. The MacOS is dead. Rhapsody may yet be stillborn. Apple is telling us quite clearly not to buy their hardware.
If Bill cannot convince Fortune 500 to upgrade to 32-bit, how much luck will Jobs have convincing them to try Rhapsody? Not much I don't think. We develop Windows software and our clients are Fortune 500. They won't consider 32-bit yet for their desktops. So we're still doing mostly all 16-bit development. Jobs is now talking about focusing education and Internet development. That is relatively small. I know the Internet is big, but not all apps that we would want to write have networking as a requirement.
If I buy Intel, I can run 6 Microsoft OSs (DOS, Win311, Win95, WinNT 4, Win98, WinNT 5). I can run the BeOS. I can run Linux. I can run FreeBSD, Unix, innumerable other OSs. If I develop for Windows and get fed up, I can move to another PC OS and be happy and productive. Can't do that with with Apple hardware.
Jobs wants me to pay a premium for his products. Why should I? Some of them are amazing, but none of them ever get anywhere. He has a history filled with very bitter developers. He is doing things now which we are told are the very reasons for Apple's decline - failing to licence the OS. I'm not a Borg lover. But at least you know where you are going with Bill. You know where you stand a risk of being run over by him. Jobs is all over the place. He doesn't go out of his way to make life easy for you. Gasse is building a really cool product. He makes it easy for me to jump aboard and stay onboard. If I don't want too much risk I can go for the Windows platform.
The choice is easy. Go with the BeOS if I want cool. Go with Windows for predictability. Stick with Intel hardware. And don't go near Apple. Thanks Steve. You've made it really easy to decide. But it's a shame you killed what was once a cool company.
The amazing thing isn't the gravity of Apple's predicament, it's that it's still around at all. The cat of legend had nine lives; by that standard Apple computers should be as extinct as Emerson televisions or DeSoto automobiles.
From: marcm@together.net (marcm);
Sent at 9/5/97; 8:29:44 AM;
It couldn't have been expressed any betterIt seems to me that Jobs is reading from a b-school lecture back in 1980: don't worry about the future, because there may not be one; focus exclusively on shareholder value in the present quarter; use short-term sleights-of hand to pump up the multiples; leverage your market share using any sleazy tactic available; and when the roof caves in, make sure you've already left the building. The arrogance and vacuousness of that management approach had nearly tanked the US economy by the mid-1980s, and not nearly enough blame was laid at the feet of the braindead dogma that was taught in "all the best schools" at that time. Still, those guys had to learn the hard way how wrong they were; Jobs, with the benefit of hindsight, has no excuse.
Lots of famous companies have followed the same path of ignoring and abusing their customer base; the Big Three auto makers spring immediately to mind. There are differences, though: since the compettiton was offshore, and tha auto makers were so important to the overall economy, they could lobby for protectionist tariffs to stall for time while they figured out how to compete effectively.
It seems like many of us in the Mac community have simultaneously thought that the Be OS may be the best route. I've begun saving for a new Power Mac to run it, and Linux as well. I started casually examining freeware and shareware programs for it. It does basically everything I want it to, runs on the hardware I want it to, and the company acts like I'd like it to.
From: jhaas@madison-web.com (Jason Haas);
Sent at 9/5/97; 7:19:28 AM;
A quick thought on the Be OSJean-Louis may have made a new home for those of us who've finally had it, even after years of giving Apple one more chance! Thanks, Jean-Louis.
It was spring of 1985 when I saw my first Mac. We were staying at a friend of a friends house at UVM, when Bob called me in to have a look at something. It mas an original Mac running MacPaint. Well we drew, and painted and spraypainted, and the eraser brought down the house. Bob said "The world isn't real anymore". I knew what he meant.
From: swfuchs@unix.asb.com (Steve Fuchs);
Sent at 9/5/97; 8:58:38 AM;
Why this hurtsIn 1986 I bought my first Mac, a 512ke loaded for bear with an external floppy drive. In no time at all I had built a switcher set of MacWrite and MacPaint. I was making killer cassette labels with ease. The productivity leap I experienced is one I'm afraid I'll never surpass.
Apple angering its customers is nothing new. Years ago they had a contest to think up a marketing theme for the ad campaign. In a humorous sidebar MacUser (I think) noted the winner should be "Apple, you'll love the computer and hate the company".
But there was something different about those blows. I always though they were in the interest of progress.
Never providing hardware upgrades - We wouldn't want to limit the new machines.
System 6 was late and didn't have preemptive multitasking or protected memory - We wanted to get the improved functionality out ASAP.
The Mac Portable - We wanted a full featured Mac that ran on batteries.
The IIvx disaster - We had to get the new machines out.
Comm Toolbox, Quickdraw GX, Powertalk, OpenDoc, etc. - Not the right direction for technology.
This is different, Apple created an environment where everyone was fighting to get the best computer into the most peoples hands at the best price and could not compete.
Now they are betraying the users who bought these machines under the belief there would be a future. Betraying the companies and employees of thise companies who thought there would be a future. Betraying a company whose technology and good will they depend upon and that is rightfully revered in business circles.
Steve Jobs wrote in his memo about getting past the thought that they should have licensed years ago. Now they have a more deadly ghost to deal with, the spectre of clones unreleased. I WILL NEVER AGAIN LOOK AT AN APPLE DESIGN AND NOT THINK "POWER WOULD HAVE HAD THIS 4 MONTHS AGO FOR $1000 LESS".
I always thought CHRP was the Macs last hope of regaining a footing in business. MIS guys hate Macs because it is a completely different set of hardware, parts and ordering channels they have to keep track of. Let there be one machine that everyone can have. Let users install the OS they want. The Mac could not help but improve it's standings under those conditions. I believe this is one reason why Gates pulled NT off of the CHRP bandwagon, he saw that scenario coming.
What next? I do not believe I can go to work on a Windows machine while Apple is still breathing, but I know I can no longer recommend non computer friends to buy Macs. In addition to the software shortage (which is and was the biggest problem), I'm not sure I can say without reservations that Macs are the best computers, only that they are the best choice available.
Have a look at this week's New Yorker (Sept 8 issue). John Heilemann has an article on Apple and Jobs. Every reason he lists for Sculley ruining Apple are things which Jobs has just done again. If they were grevious mistakes under Sculley why are they OK under Jobs? Well, Heilemann wrote his article before Jobs made him look foolish.
From: luke@tymowski.org (Luke Tymowski);
Sent at 9/5/97; 9:21:10 AM;
AppleI think you're on to something, especially since Be OS natively and originally supports multiple processors. Daystar's kludge lets Macs do it, but the additional processors only play a supporting role. If someone makes a version of AppleShare available for BeOS, I'll definitely look into a dual-processor card and BeOS for my server.
From: dknight@bakerbooks.com (Daniel Knight);
Sent at 9/5/97; 9:32:22 AM;
BeOS v. Mac OSAs I understand it, Apple doesn't own CHRP, so CHRP + BeOS could go places, especially with Mac OS and Windows emulation.